Frère militaire de l'ordre de l'Hôpital de Saint Jean de Jér

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frater sinister
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jeu. avr. 23, 2009 3:48 pm

Can you explain to me why did you put an hood on the surcote.
And why a surcote on the chainmail ?
I used the researches of Per Braz and Callixte for my Hospitaller knight. So you can see a lot of precious informations directly from their website, here: http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=28
I sent them some mails too. Of course, initially (about a year ago) I only read the Osprey Book "Knight Hospitaller 1100-1306", but I was not so sure about a lot of things. Later, I asked some informations about the Hospitaller "cappa" to an italian tailor (Luciano from Medieval Design). He gave me confirmation about the style of the monastic cappa with the hood and advise about the mantle without hood.
However He do not know much about Hospitallers.

Image
Here you can see an idea for the cappa with hood and the mantle without hood.
However there are other sources where the hood is not present in the cappa.

Per Braz said to me than actually the only sure thing should be than the Hospitallers used a black mantle without hood with a white greek cross.
He also said to me than is not clear if the cappa was really black, brown or with or without the white greek cross over it, and if it was used over the hauberk too. However, I also saw on the Osprey book: Knight of Outremer (pg 9) a picture from a wall-painting of the Templar Church of Cressac, western France (mid-late XII century), were we can see some templars with a long surcoat or cappa over their armor (it cover the arms too) and they have a cross in the left side of the chest... but this cappa do not have an hood.

Here you can see the picture:
Image

and another picture where you can see a long white surcoat (without arms):
Image

Sure, all this ideas are only hypothesis. I know than the group of "les guerrier du moyen age" created an hospitaller reconstruction were the cappa is not over the hauberk, and the Hospitaller in arms wear only the mantle without hood...
I'm only a simple novice, but I tried to do my best for have a good Hospitaller... ;)
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"DIEU VULT! DIO lo Vuole!"

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<img src="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" alt="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" style="border:0" />
roberto_

jeu. avr. 23, 2009 5:40 pm

Frater Sinister let me respond to question.
1) Hospitallers, Templars and teutonics are monks.
2) the monastic dress was two types: with and without hood.
the monastic mantle was two types: with and without hood.
if the monastic dress was with hood, the mantle was without hood.
if the monastic dress was without hood, the mantle was with hood.
3) Hospitallers were in primis monks and in secundis knights.
From 1122 The pope ordered them to dress monastic tunic over hausberg. the monastic dress couldn't be covered by hausberg.
the monk isn't a monk without his monastic dress.
4) surcoat is not a monastic dress. surcoat is a knight dress.
the pope ordered hospitallers to dress surcoat from 1259. the pope is ALEXANDER IV.

DONALD DUCK IS a monks of 1130's years. HE IS PERFECT. I LOVE DONALD DUCK.

PACE E BENE FRATELLO SINISTRO
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frater sinister
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jeu. avr. 23, 2009 6:43 pm

Perfect is a big word, too big... However I think (and hope) than my Hospitaller is a good and serious work. Nothing more. :D
Sources are so poor than is really not easy to be sure about something.

PS: My Hospitalle Knight is from the mid-late XII century, about 1170-1187, not 1130 ;) or I could not use an italo-norman helmet with mask...
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"DIEU VULT! DIO lo Vuole!"

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +






<img src="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" alt="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" style="border:0" />
roberto_

ven. avr. 24, 2009 1:52 am

beh mo te devo bacchettà
fino a papa alessandro IV gli ospitalieri, e i monaci guerrieri in generale, usavano la tunica con cappuccio durante i combattimenti e pertanto la datazione è possibile SOLO per altri particolari.
il tuo elmo è sicuramente siciliano arabo-normanno e pertanto non arriva al 1200. la spada è l'unica reale pecca se vogliamo fare i mega super pignoli: se noti la guardia chiaramente non è databile antecedente al 1400. lo stile è diverso. Ma questo è fare pignoleria in scala industriale.
Ti ripeto è perfetto. Non esageriamo. Sei molto al di sopra della media e se non mi credi guarda qua
http://www.traniweb.it/media/galleriafo ... azione=158
le surcotte compaiono solo con papa alessandro IV e l'imperatore federico II è morto nel 1250.
Perciò Paperino è da competizione.
a riguardo l'usbergo ti ricordo che la tunica monacale va sopra e pertanto non so fino a che punto conviene metterlo.
Ma noi siamo stakanovisti.
TI ripeto metti la bandiera che Paperino sta benissimo.
Le bolle papali ci sono, il problema che non sappiamo dove stanno. ed io ho perso un hd con un oceano di dati sopra.
Ah per la cronaca! il Link è di una manifestazione in cui ho SOLO, e ripeto SOLO, creato il personaggio del CHIERICO che per intenderci è il frate in bianco e marrone verso la fine. Gli altri frati sono dei miles christi di Toritto.
Ti ripeto sò esattamente come gira il mondo, quindi non esagerare che tanto non serve.
Se mi decido, il MIO ospitaliero sarà uguale al tuo: solo la spada e l'elmo saranno leggermente diversi. Io punto su Manfredi I di Sicilia e Federico II dell'impero.

PACE e BENE fratello sinistro

PS: quando dico 1130 è semplicemente per indicare che gli ospitalieri ebbero cavalieri solo dopo il 1122 in pratica 1130.
So benissimo qual'è il range temporale di paperino. E soprattuto so in una rievocazione storica come collocarlo. Il punto è: TANTA FATICA VALE IL MOCCOLO DELLA CANDELA. Per la massa il discorso che stiamo facendo è da imbecilli perditempo.
Forse davanti ti faranno complimenti ma alle spalle ti chiameranno fesso per aver speso tutti quei soldi per paperino.
Guarda con attenzione le foto e NON VEDRAI i particolari che a te e a me tanto piacciono.
Ah per la cronaca i presidenti di quell'associazione sono quelli con l'abito dell'ordine di gerusalemme. In nero la presidentessa. Chi consegna le targhe è il sindaco dott. Tarantini. Non aggiungo altro.
Scusa lo sfogo.
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markus
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ven. avr. 24, 2009 6:14 am

Roberto a dit :
the pope ordered hospitallers to dress surcoat from 1259.
Sure, but he was talking about Red surcoat with a white cross..we don't khnow if there was a surcoat (with or without cross), or not before.
I think u mix the monastic and the knights tunic.For me, Hospitaller's military equipment is similar to the other knights of this period: with or without a surcoat. The monk tunic is only a civilian dress.
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frater sinister
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ven. avr. 24, 2009 7:00 am

But brother-in-arms had to wear black cappae over their armour. It was cleary not suited to violent movement of close combat, yet it was not until 1248 that Pope Innocent IV allowed the brothers-in-arms to "wear wide surcoat, bearing upon the breast the sign of cross" although only in dangerous areas.
David Nicolle pg 25 from "Knight Hospitaller 1100-1306"

the picture of the templars/crusaders from a wall-painting of the XII century that I included...should confirm it:
Military Order (Templars and Hospitaller etc) brother-in-arms from the XII century could wear cappae bearing upon the breast the sign of cross... over their armour.
Image

However there wasn't a real uniform in that age... so I think that written sources give some rules, but sometime or often hospitallers do what was possible and practical, using the materials available in every zone... or some individual considerations... so no knight hospitaller "uniform" was (of course) identical...
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"DIEU VULT! DIO lo Vuole!"

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<img src="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" alt="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" style="border:0" />
roberto_

ven. avr. 24, 2009 7:34 am

From Alphonso X's Book of Games

Image Hospitallers

Image Templars
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Pierre de Mirmande
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sam. avr. 25, 2009 4:48 am

I am not agree with the fact that knights hospitallers live as monks (or they are).
For the same reason, I am reserved about the hood too but this is not a problem for me to see that. We all do interpretation ! ;)
roberto_

sam. avr. 25, 2009 6:38 am

Pierre!! READ this ,Please!

http://www.guerriersma.com/contenu/reco ... talier.htm

hospitallers were Benedictine monks.

Frater Sinistro beccate questa

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/ ... tmalta.htm

Image
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Pierre de Mirmande
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sam. avr. 25, 2009 1:56 pm

I am not sure they were benedictin monks. The connection between the two orders are not really clear as well...
And on the first link you gave, I read this :
Admission to the Order of St John as a brother-knight is available to knights and the sons of knights and other nobles, who are at least twenty years old, unmarried, and who bring a knight's equipment with them to the Order.
The brother knight Pierre de Mirmande was married and had two children when he entered the order and it was during the mid XIIth ! So as you can see, a lot of things are unknown to us and a lot of things we believe real are fake !
:)
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frater sinister
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sam. avr. 25, 2009 5:05 pm

Pierre if you have more questions you can ask directly to Per Braz or Callixte, in fact I used their researches for my Knight Hospitaller, with some little differences. Send them a mail so they could answer better to you... and in french language too... English language is not perfect to communicate...

Here there are some articles in your french language too:
http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=28
http://www.guerriersma.com/contenu/reco ... ccueil.htm

Of course each group has his interpretations and hypothesis. I think all o them could be correct... nevertheless none of us holds the truth...
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"DIEU VULT! DIO lo Vuole!"

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dim. avr. 26, 2009 6:59 am

Le problème avec les croix c'est qu'on peut pas savoir si c'est un rajout de l'auteur pour identifier les personnages, ou s'ils en avaient vraiment une..concernant la garnache on est à peu près sûr qu'il n'y en avait pas, mais pour le surcot rien de clair à mon sens (on ne sait même pas s'il y avait un surcot déjà)
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frater sinister
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dim. avr. 26, 2009 7:31 am

Markus, I say to you what I have said to Pierre: if you need more informations ask directly to Per Braz or Callixte.
I have my source of Cressac where we see a cappae with the "sign of the cross" over the armour of a crusader/templar knight, so I use it plus the researches of Per Braz and Callixte for my Hospitaller.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

"DIEU VULT! DIO lo Vuole!"

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +






<img src="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" alt="http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/image ... 0x60-1.gif" style="border:0" />
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Pierre de Mirmande
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dim. avr. 26, 2009 3:06 pm

Thanks Frater Sinister. I know these articles.
Basically, I think the idea of the hood and the monk as well is the continuity of a misinterpretation of the 18th or 19th century... like many things we could take unconsciously for granted about the medieval period. [img]kator/smiley144.gif[/img]
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frater sinister
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lun. juin 28, 2010 4:58 pm

Ho infine incluso alcuni significativi aggiornamenti al mio Fratello Ospitaliere del XII secolo (circa 1185-1206), in continua evoluzione.

I have finally included some updatings to my Brother Hospitaller of the XII century (around 1185 -1206), in continuous evolution.

Ho eliminato l'elmo italo-normanno con maschera, poichè insoddisfacente... esso risultava infatti una semplice produzione industriale, che sebbene solida, non offriva una ricostruzione affidabile. A lungo ho riflettuto su quale elmo sostitutivo adottare, senza mai risultare soddisfatto dell'alternativa. Infine ho avuto la fortuna di notare una interessante fonte iconografica, presente in un manoscritto spagnolo risalente al 1185, in cui è mostrato un cavaliere che indossa un elmo semplice ma efficace:

I have eliminated the italo-Norman helmet with mask, since unsatisfactory... it resulted in fact a simple industrial production, that although solid, it didn't offer a reliable reconstruction. For a long time I have thought over on what substitutive helmet to adopt, without never resulting satisfied of the alternative. I have finally had the fortune to notice an interesting source, from a Spanish manuscrïpt to 1185, in which it is shown a knight that wears a simple but effective helmet:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7937/10289962.jpg

ho dunque commissionato tale elmo ad un artigiano italiano ed il risultato mi ha soddisfatto. Ecco le immagini:

I have commissioned such helmet to an Italian artisan. Here are the images:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9277/2 ... 516519.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9936 ... 616519.jpg
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/8164 ... 716519.jpg

Mi sono inoltre liberato del vecchio fodero in cuoio, sostituendolo con una versione più verosimile con anima in legno (sempre opera di un artigiano italiano):

I have freed besides some old sheath in leather, replacing it with a more likely version with soul in wood (always work of an Italian artisan):

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8168/2 ... 816519.jpg

Ho infine acquisito una lancia, a cui includerò una bandiera con tre code dell'Ordine dell'Ospedale di San Giovanni di Gerusalemme. Una semplice croce creca bianca con sfondo rosso.

I have finally acquired a lance, to which I will include a flag with three tails of the order of the hospital of St. John of Jerusalem. A simple white greek cross with red background.

Molto probabilmente dipingerò il nuovo elmo, seguendo il medesimo schema già sperimentato per il precedene. L'unica differenza è che la striscia in ferro rivettata verrà anch'essa dipinta di colore bianco.

I will paint the new helmet following the same scheme already experimented for the old helmet. The only difference is that the strip will also come painted of white color.

Ecco alcune immagini dell'ospitaliere aggiornato, sono in compagnia di un altro aspirante ospitaliere (il quale necessita ovviamente di alcuni perfezionamenti):

Some images of the adjourned Hospitaller, I'm here with another aspirant Hospitaller (which obviously requires some improvements):

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7291/sta71552.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1765/sta71528.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4517/sta71525.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5191/sta71529.jpg
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3912/sta71554.jpg
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